MSCHF (aka Mischief, aka Miscellaneous Mischief)

How to create a venture-backed art society that creates subversive culture

This is part four in a series about societies—rather than businesses or governments—that have made a meaningful impact on the world. Read the series intro here, part one here, part two here, and part three here.

Welcome to part four of The Society Builders.

Today’s focus could be described as an art society, a fashion brand, a venture-backed startup, or a subversive reboot of conceptual artists from yesteryear. It’s known for viral Internet concept art (made manifest across different forms per project)—which makes it perfect for investigating the interface of societies with culture (as opposed to societies with business or societies with politics).

Meet MSCHF, aka Miscellaneous Mischief, out of Brooklyn, NY.

MSCHF’s co-founder Gabe Whaley recently gave a super rare interview to one of the best interviewers around right now, Patrick O'Shaughnessy. And the outcome is super valuable for society founders and builders, especially those who’d seek to impact culture in some meaningful (or even ephemeral-yet-memorable) way.

We’ll look at eight insightful lessons from MSCHF’s co-founder, on everything from originating project concepts to running a creative studio, from how to monetize something like MSCHF to why caring directly about virality isn’t the point. And we’ll primarily use transcripts from the podcast to let Gabe make the points himself.

Stick around at the end for some quick state-of-the-series commentary, too, with a few reflections worth noting.

Without further adieu—let’s dive into MSCHF.

1) You can define yourself per audience, not universally

Patrick:

I wonder how you would describe, in more than a sentence, what MSCHF is, just to level set for anyone that hasn't heard of it.

Gabe:

It really depends on who I'm talking to, because MSCHF means so many different things to so many different people. I think, selfishly, for me, it is my excuse and my friends' excuse to make whatever it is that's in our heads at any given moment.

But if you ask someone in the art world, they're going to compare it to, for better or worse, Banksy or Warhol or Duchamp—all of whom I've learned a lot about in the last few years. If it's someone in the fashion world, they'll make comparisons to Supreme or Balenciaga or Loewe—also things that I've learned a lot about in the last few years.

Actually, when people look at MSCHF, I think they just see a reflection of themselves and the worlds they inhabit a little bit. And that doesn't mean they always like it, but that is what they see.

2) Build a disciplined system around the people who “speak the language of the ideas”

Patrick

Another way of asking it would be, what do you do over and over again? Maybe even spend some time getting into the structured process for creativity…

Gabe

If you really had to think about what we're doing here, we're manufacturing cultural output. And so with that statement alone, it sort of removes the need for sticking to a category or having these arbitrary lines set up that dictate and define what you do over a long period of time.

For us, it's just purely cultural output. How can that live in whatever format, medium, device makes sense to resonate the most in culture, both now and in the future? And so if you look back at our body of work, what that has yielded is everything from, most obviously, very viral pieces of footwear to, maybe more interestingly, software that helps you do your taxes via going on virtual dates with a cute anime girl in a cafe.

It can be anything. But the through line that ties it all together is this underlying feeling of subversive creativity. So how do we do that? We're constantly thinking. We've assembled a group of people here who are not just thinking about these ideas, but they speak the language of these ideas…

I guess to get back to your question, though, with all of these ideas, how do you actually turn it into something real? And I knew that would be a big challenge when we started because I think it's really easy for a creative or artistic person to have their head so far in the clouds—in a good way—that it makes it very difficult to actually do the dirty work, to be productive, to create work, to make new outputs.

So we actually had to build a process and a system that would allow us to constantly generate these ideas, document these ideas, vet these ideas, and then ultimately slot them for production on a timeline that allows us to effectively organize our resources, organize our time, organize our abilities. And what that ended up yielding is sort of like a creative sweatshop here in Brooklyn that we have all extremely consensually signed up to be a part of.

3) Let your unique expressive taste and calling emerge by honoring the small versions early, and scaling incrementally

And consider that your calling may be part of your shadow, those apparent “weaknesses” you hate or disown that could push you, like incompatible magnets, in the opposite direction—toward a calling that uniquely suits your personality.

Patrick

…And I want to talk about how it got to here. Maybe going back to the very origin days of MSCHF. It's way organized now. We'll come back to that process and go into it in detail, but maybe talk us through, like, the origin. Whether it's at BuzzFeed or however far back you want to take it. And the first couple of things that you did, which were more bespoke, more just you and a small group of people versus this big thing.

Gabe

Yeah, yeah. This really all started with me just running away from real life. I think there's, like, a longer story here of me dropping out of the military academy and not being able to hold down real jobs at real call centers where I was expected to make 80 phone calls a day.

All of these things just kind of weren't working out for me. And I guess in protest, or more accurately, procrastination of these things, in 2011, 2012, I started teaching myself how to make websites because I had these ideas for funny projects that I wanted to build because they sort of made fun of this world that I was not allowed to really participate in.

I had this bit of a sheltered upbringing that ended up culminating in West Point, where you're even more sheltered. And so by the time I got out as a 20-year-old, I was seeing the real world for the first time and not really knowing where my place was or who my friends were or how am I supposed to dress.

I talk to a lot of college kids these days and they've already got it all figured out. They're more networked than I am now. So for me, I had nothing. I was a blank slate. And I really just didn't know where I belonged.

So I would make these websites that kind of made fun of everything that I was observing. And somehow these websites would get a ton of attention. And I started to learn about the relationship between concept, production, execution, and audience purely by accident…

And so if you manage to channel that lust that you've gotten from this experience, if you're able to channel that with a desire to learn and a desire to create, it creates something really potent. And I think that's what MSCHF ended up becoming.

4) The simplest ideas can become the most generative and creative building blocks for radical work

Patrick

I have to ask a question that's probably hard to answer with words. You've already said it, but it feels key to this, which is you talked about it as a language before, that everyone kind of speaks the nature of the feeling.

When you know you have something, what else can you say about it that is in the things you create that allows this sort of thing to happen? Because it's amazing how consistent it is across the body of work.

And I'm going to start diving into different—the art world, the fashion world—they're all different. But you've been able to do it in enough places now. This is not random. Maybe now's the time to talk about the process that leads to one of these outputs. Because I just want to understand more about what is imbued in that shoe and the million other things that you've done that just have this quality to capture imagination.

Gabe

Yeah. Yeah. If I knew how to articulate the magic, people would have probably tried to figure it out by now. And I think they are trying to.

And not to dumb it down, but I think a big part of it is, at the end of the day, I don't even think what we do is that profound or new. It's actually, like, pretty simple. It takes something that people are generally familiar with, whether it is a shoe or an existing artwork or an existing system—the iMessage dots. These are systems that people are already deeply familiar with.

We just have to, like, tweak it a little bit, inject our point of view into it, and then push it back at you. And so really, at the end of the day, I think the greatest MSCHF projects are ones that are this multi-angled mirror that are just reflecting a slightly distorted version of your own reality back at you.

And we have a pretty good sense of when we've done that well, and we have a good idea of, even before it goes out to the world, this is tapping into—not the zeitgeist, because MSCHF actually doesn't exist in the zeitgeist because we do these things a year in advance. There's a term that often comes up in conversations around Warhol and Duchamp of cultural readymades, which is this idea of taking an existing object in culture that is known for one thing and then putting it in a new context that will give it a new meaning.

So Duchamp did that with the toilet. Toilets are designed for what we all know toilets do. But then he puts it in a gallery setting or a museum setting, and it really just shocked everyone. I think we do that in a way, but in a way that's more relevant to just the way that the world works right now.

5) It’s worthwhile to define for yourself and your team the pairing of “mischief with a manifesto”—IOW, a single key value (like “subversion”) that can shape your work (i.e., your “mischief”)

Patrick

Is it fair to say that there is both, from an ingredients sense, some nihilism and some incredible hope and generative—?

Gabe

I think you nailed it. It's nihilism in the sense nothing matters. And we're not necessarily going to make the world a better place, but maybe this will ease your fall. And in that sense it's a little bit hopeful too. We're not mean-spirited; we're not edgelords necessarily trying to take the piss out of an institution or something like that. I think there's just a hidden way of seeing the world. Subversion can be a higher form of creative output. It just fuels us for some reason. There isn't even necessarily, like, a higher calling beyond our personal desire to make the most creative work of our lives.

6) Be super thoughtful about team construction and culture design for generating excellent output

Patrick

Let's talk about process in detail now. How, if I take anything that's coming off the line next week, how far back does it go? Who contributes ideas and how? What role do you play? How does the team work together in as much detail as you can? Like, what is the process?

Gabe

The most important thing that I think I've done here was create a system where people are not afraid to have ideas. So if you think of any other creative workplace or creative industry, typically, like, junior people are pitching to senior people. Jobs are on the line, pride is on the line. You're afraid to be wrong; you're afraid to be judged for a bad idea. To me, those are like the killers of creativity.

So from the beginning I did a lot of work at curating the right type of people where ego is not an obstacle to having a good idea or preventing someone else from having a good idea. Creating an environment where people can feel a little bit reckless; they can make mistakes; they can make a mess. And that's very straightforward. You look around at this space; it feels like you can make a mistake. Being in a warehouse is really important, actually. If we were in a white box in SoHo, you wouldn't want to mess it up.

And then creating also this culture where it doesn't feel like it's just my ideas getting made or the ideas that I like. That really boils down to creating a certain sense of codes and sensibilities that we all sort of agree on culturally. And you see that come through in the work.

So that was the most important thing that I ever did. Because at the end of the day, the people who come up with the ideas at MSCHF are actually everyone. You can work on the finance team; you can be our general counsel; you can be on the manufacturing production team. Anyone here can come up with a good idea. Anyone is capable of coming up with a good idea.

And in fact, it's more valuable to get good ideas from people who aren't in the business of good ideas, because their vantage point is real, versus people whose jobs are to come up with ideas but don't exist in a space that they can actually reflect on. It's fake. We choose to exist in real spaces. And then as a result, you create ideas that are able to exist in these spaces as well in a way that's very interactive and almost experiential in a way.

So that's the vibe part. But then brass tacks. You brainstorm rigorously, multiple times a week. They're timed on the same schedule every single time. There's a curriculum planned in advance. It's almost like designing a school curriculum. So, like, every quarter, there are topics and concentrations and themes that we think are important for MSCHF in the future. And then also topics, concentrations, and themes that we have no idea about, just to, like, challenge ourselves with new information and keep challenging ourselves to not just exist in our own bubble that we've created.

The brainstorms happen. Every idea is documented. We have an entire library of these ideas. And then over, I'd say, like, a three- to six-month period, all of these ideas are run through a fairly long-tail vetting process that involves evaluation based on normal things like: Can we afford to do this? How much money are we going to lose doing this? Will we make money on this? Is it even possible? Or does it need further research?

But then also things like: Does this shape the personality of MSCHF in the way that we want? It's almost like MSCHF is a child and we're raising it. As soon as we land on concepts that we feel really good about, we actually put them in a pile and then forget about them. And that part is what makes this take six months, because then we will open that pile six months later, look at them and be like, "Okay, I already forgot about these ideas. But now that I'm looking at them again, do I still feel very excited about them? Have they survived the test of time?" And if they do, then they are ready to slot for production. And typically that's done about 12 months in advance. So even now, we know all of next year's calendar already.

7) The animating goal shouldn’t be totally ephemeral—aka, “values” are too vague, so, if possible, ladder down in concreteness toward at least feelings (away from purely ideas)

Patrick

You said something to me before which I loved, which I've used a lot since, which is that you can't define MSCHF just as you couldn't at the beginning. But you can think about how you are trying to monopolize a certain feeling for the person interacting with MSCHF.

How would you describe that feeling that you're trying to monopolize? And I love that framing. Anyone can ask that question of themselves. I love that.

Gabe

It will be different things to different people. But I think there is this feeling of subversion. There is this feeling of levity. It's kind of funny, but not funny in the way that you see on Saturday Night Live.

And hopefully it also just makes you pause and think a little bit, like, oh, interesting. I never thought of it that way, but it's totally true. This is just a reflection of a phenomenon that already exists. And then at the end of the day, hopefully you just see it and embrace this idea of pure, unbridled creativity.

That's what it is. At the end of the day, it's the idea that nothing that you see in front of you is what it may seem. It can be an opportunity for something like so much more. And hopefully people are seeing what we do and they feel inspired to break some rules, make something or do it in a different way. The rules are all fake.

8) The new alpha / new meta is secrets, not hyper-publicness (i.e., virality)

Patrick

Does it feel like you're at any sort of crossroads right now?

Gabe

Yeah, yeah, it totally does…

…The other part that also impacts is it changes a little bit about how we see ourselves and how we talk about ourselves and how we communicate with others. There was a time where we were a huge black box.

I would never be doing this interview with you because there was value in the secrecy when nobody knew who we were and they couldn't understand our intentions or our motivations or our goals. But now that we're more visible, I think we're hitting a point where it makes sense to share a little bit more in hopes that other people see this and walk away rethinking their own perspectives on creativity and the act of creation. And doing things which I think is really good. So those are sort of the philosophical internal struggle crossroads.

But then there are other crossroads too in the world right now. I think virality is increasingly just a cheap tool. Like I said earlier, back in the day, the act of going viral was black magic 10 years ago, but it's not the case now. Now it feels artificial, cheap, kind of gross.

So we're thinking a lot more about almost how to suppress virality, actively fight that, which is a crazy thing to think about. That is not what a real business would say to do right now. It's continue to hemorrhage as many free eyeballs as you can. No matter where they come from or what the intention is, just keep doing it.

For us, I think it's an important time for us to think about how do you make that a little bit harder for people? How do you create more secrets? So that's another crossroads that we're at. And then I guess from a business point of view, we also have to think about the difference between quick short-term cash and long-term cultural importance where our motivations are.

As an aside, note the similarity between Gabe’s comments and the ever-insightful Jeremy Giffon’s recent comment on X:

Conclusion & State-of-the-Series Reflections

I had way more takeaways beyond what’s included here, especially insights for founders that aren’t immediately apparent from Gabe’s simple offhand remarks. I’ll likely write another piece later looking at those, as they’re quite interesting and likely quite valuable for would-be founders of hard-to-describe societies or projects.

And yet, within this series, it’s becoming clear to me that the type of societies I have in mind to describe aren’t necessarily all the same kind of thing—nor are all “societies” in the traditional sense.

But I suspect societies are still fairly vague ideas, at least in the “startup society” sense that Balaji wants to promulgate. I’m sure the sociologists have done great work defining precisely what a society is—and I’m equally sure they’ve had zero (0) conversations with anyone intending to create new ones like founders create businesses.

So, there’s definitely more to learn, more to explore, more to investigate, more to discover. I hope by the end of this survey that the nature of startup societies will be much clearer, even if just as a gestalt across the sweep of case studies. Until then, we’ll keep exploring the most interesting societies past and present to see what we can learn that could be useful for shaping the societies we might create—to walk in their footsteps in interesting-yet-different ways.

For those following this series in real-time, thanks for following along, and do please subscribe and share any especially interesting or resonant pieces with anyone thinking about similar stuff or working in similar directions.